Man Engraved: A response to Boy Erased

Well said, excellent! I appreciate your ability to articulate the truth of God without being offensive!

When God meets you, you can’t deny that He did! As the apostle Paul!

Beautifully and Truthfully spoken. Having been a participant in the Love In Action program in Northern California before it was moved to Tennessee, I can attest to the fact nothing like what Conley has experienced ever happened in California. My heart breaks for Conley if that was his experience as written in his memoir. God is gentle in His correction not harsh nor abusive. He is a God Father. No matter how far we run from Him, He is always ready with open arms to pick us up again.

Mr. Dallas, why do you call it a true story? It seems like hatedul propaganda to me.

Theresa, the author of the book the film is based on did attend group sessions in a ministry program, and the former director of the program has verified this. The way he describes the program, and the way he now uses his description to discredit legitimate ministry, is indeed propaganda. But the story itself, even if it is embellished, is based on facts.

I also participated in the Northern California ministry of Love in Action, for four years. 20 years later, I went on staff for LIA in Memphis, probably a few years after Gerrard Conley went through the heavily modified program ( from what it had been in California). Having read reviews and interviews about the film I am surmising that the film presents a "straw man" of how, as you point out, the propagandists want so-called conversion therapies to be understood and presented. I never saw LIA , even while participating in its residential program for those four years back in the 1990s, as a way to "change" my homosexual feelings and desires, but as a way to live In Christ with my feelings and desires, which have ever been in flux. The "straw man" is a ministry which claims to change people from "gay" to straight. I never saw LIA as being able to effect that kind of change. I am afraid that this film is yet another recasting of reality in the image of an agenda-driven industry (Hollywood film-making), hell-bent on shaping the politics of our culture. I am also betting that the film does not represent Christianity in an authentic or favorable light either.

Tim, it’s good hearing from you again! I strongly agree about the “straw man” principle at play here. Thanks for your insights, which are valuable and relevant. God bless.

Well said!

My experience is very similar to Conley’s so perhaps your experience is not universal.

What I went through was so absolutely horrendous, and traumatising, that I have C-ptsd now. 32 years later.

Please do not assume he is lying. Perhaps you experienced good men.

When I tell my story, I am accused to “propaganda” even though I rarely tell all. Portions of it are hard enough.

Think of it like Priests who sexually abuse children. Is it all Priests? No, but just because you have a good experience with a Priest, does not mean those who were abused are not telling the truth.

Cat, if your experiences were similar to those Conley reports, then I am so sorry. There's no reason to presume your story is propaganda, a presumption I won't make about you account or Conley's. My concern is that we don't presume either way. Just because someone reports a bad experience does not make it true, and if it is true, it shouldn't be assumed to represent the experience of all others. Each story needs to be taken on its own merit.

I stand behind my argument that most of us who've done this sort of work over the years have never used the techniques reported in this film, and we never will. But I know that doesn't guarantee everyone doing it over the years has done it well. Abuses happen in every field; this one's no exception. So I do not believe it was wrong of you to seek help for dealing with your sexuality in a Biblical way, and I do not believe the people you went to were wrong to offer you that help. But if they offered it in the wrong way, then that's the problem, and you have a legitimate complaint. Again, Cat, I'm sorry to hear that. By no means do I assume you're lying. I only ask that assumptions not be made either way.

It breaks my heart to see that the “conversion therapy” portrayed in this story is claimed to be the will of God. How much farther from the will of God can you get! My experience in Love In Action, San Rafael, in the 80’s, was not one of a conversion type program. It was a year of guidance, encouragement and surrender into a life that put Christ first over all else. It wasn’t until a few years later when, all I wanted to do is serve God, that the Spirit led me into and experience of “conversion” and a life of heterosexuality. If your sole intention in seeking the will of God is for
SSA conversion then you will miss the fact that, in seeking the will of God we are led to realize that living out God’s love by laying down OUR OWN life for others is more God’s will than our own “conversion”.

So clearly, we’re here because there are those who refuse to admit any wrongdoing or harm has been done to so many young folk who identify as LGBTQI at the hands of a ministry hidden behind a flowery name i.e Love In Action. These same sort of folk refused to see how the church could possibly abuse thousands of children over decades. It comes down to acceptance and realisation that you’re perpetuating a belief structure that being LGBTQI is wrong and therefore requires curing or fixing. There are countless testimonies from LGBTQI folk who were put through these horrid therapies, mainly to appease family or from fear of being isolated because of their identity and how they viewed mistreatment of their kind by others. This film/memoir isn’t propaganda, it’s a relevant narrative for how many still view LGBTQI folk. The attitudes and opinions that many still have are abhorrent, when it comes to another human beings life. As you mentioned Crowe, I’d recommend The Sum Of Us, a Russel Crowe film, as he’s your favourite actor. It’s a very decent Australian film.

Joe Dallas you did a great job at communicating the truth about this entire situation. You communicated with truth and grace, without compromise. Excellent!

Grateful to know you man of God!

Sincerely,
Stephen Black

What an outstanding, insightful article (as always) from Joe, and raw personal comments from readers.

I went through the year-long Love In Action program in 1987 and it was a very positive experience; not without its hiccups but very good overall.

At the time, I had left the mission field because I thought I was gay and I wanted to be straight, or normal. Today, thirty years later, I would no longer identify as gay or ex-gay but as a straight heterosexual Christian with SSA issues. I labored under a false identity for many years but today with a better understanding of my true identity life is much better.

Nico, see my response to Cat above.

Certainly, those who go into therapy or ex-gay ministry under pressure were not likely to change their orientation, but what the leaders of the ex-gay ministries Love in Action, Exodus International, etc. admitted publicly was that during the 4 decades of change claims no Christians experienced a change of sexual orientation via Christ, via therapy or any other means. There is no method which changes a person's sexual orientation no matter how sincerely they want that, no matter how hard they try. There are over 6 million Christians alive today who are LGBT (out of 2.1 billion Christians worldwide) and there are only a few dozen ex-gays now. Even they don't claim to be heterosexual - unless they have a financial stake in the claim. 9 of 10 gays who marry women end up divorced. It's time to deal with the fact that even if a few people claim change to heterosexual, they are merely the exceptions to the rule that sexual orientation is not changed by choice or by Christ. LGBT people will always be LGBT people, and marrying someone of the opposite sex will harm the straight spouse and cause pain to entire families.

Since homosexual desire is cited in scripture as one of many manifestations of lust and of fallen nature (Romans 1:26-27) and since homosexual behavior is cited as one of many sexual sins falling short of God's intentions (Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13; I Corinthians 6:9-10; I Timothy 1: 10) then it stands to reason that someone repenting of this sin will experience some degree of temptation. (The same can be said of anyone repenting of any life dominating sin) The Bible promises deliverance from the power of sin (Romans 6:14) strength to resist the pull towards sin (I Corinthians 10:13) and transformation of the total person (II Corinthians 3:18) The way that transformation impacts sexual responses will vary from person to person, with some people experiencing ongoing same-sex temptations, some less frequently, and some claiming to have none, although I think it's better not to assume you've ever "arrived." Any Biblically sound ministry will operate with these principles in mind. To a serious disciple the question is never, "Can I legitimize acting on a tendency just because I never lost it?" but rather, "How can I best live in obedience?"

I’m Christian and used to identify as gay so you can call that ex gay if you like. And definitely don’t think I’m just one of a few dozen, in fact Iv met more than that number.

Brilliant article as always Joe

Your an inspiration and blessing

Good essay Joe! You're right. It takes discipleship to overcome sexual brokenness, just like any other addiction. I can testify to that.

Thanks very much for your thoughts and testimony, Carl.

Thanks Jones, I can testify to that, too!

Joe, I just found you thanks to Nancy Pearcey's endorsement on LinkedIn. Great article balancing Truth & Love. I grew up in rural America... for me, "gay" was an archaic way to say 'joyful'. I heard the term "homosexual" right before attending Metropolitan Community Church in Seattle back in 1986. I've seen /porneo/ sexual twistedness eat the life out of dear friends who abandoned the glory of Christ for their new Cause. I'm glad you're engaging the marketplace of ideas, and helping people yield to the true lordship and redeeming love of Jesus.

Thanks Tom. I appreciate the encouragement. I didn't mention this in my post, but I was on staff with the Metropolitan Community Church of Long Beach for a few years back in the late 70's and early 80's. God is very merciful and faithful.

As always, I'm grateful for yet another article from you Mr Dallas. I'm a mother you speak about. I want my son back! Because of porn he has fallen away from God and began living outside of God's will. He has purposefully tried to act "gay" I know my son and his sisters know their brother who is blatantly honest with them and considers them his best friends. They had a church small group he loved and was very active in. He has cried and said he hates who he's become. (To his sister's) He's very masculine, avid outdoorsman hunts, fishes, doesn't have a clue how to color coordinate, clean and most times leaves the house a wrinkled mess. He decorates with animal mounts etc. dated beautiful women for ever and had his heart broken by the love of his life not once but 3 times fell into depression and began a porn addiction. In my son's case this has been embraced not inbred. I can hardly stand hearing the words "God can't!" He can do ALL THINGS And anyone who comes to the end of themselves SEEK HIM FIRST AND HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS ALL THESE THINGS SHALL BE ADDED UNTO YOU. True repentance, tearful, give it ALL TO HIM repentance can be washed white as snow. Until you surrender all, BELIEVE and put on the WHOLE armor of God daily, all will not be changed. He knows your heart and what's still hiding and what your holding onto. My son will come back from the land of the enemy, it's my GOD'S declaration and he's a man of his word!

God has blessed me with the ability and privilege of being married to my beautiful wife for almost 29 years. I was abused as a child and have always been tempted by same sex attraction. I listen to who JESUS says I am and that’s what has guided me ever since I gave my life to Him 34 years ago. I used to be the director of an Exodus ministry in MI and while I heard about a few abuses “here and there,” that’s not how the ministry I lead operated. You can ask anyone who ever walked through our ministry’s doors. Some are living out their transformed lives in Christ, some believe they’re “gay Christians,” and some never claimed Christ as Savior over any area of their life. To a person, however, all the feedback I’ve ever received over the years tells me that people felt safe and loved when they walked through our doors. I know the horror stories are out there, especially in talking to ministry participants who participated in LIA, and my heart broke and still breaks for them. It simply doesn’t discredit what many very loving people such as Joe or myself ever did/have done for those who identify as LGBTQ, because we did it by offering the love of Christ not coercion or other destructive methods.

Bonnie, we are all certainly believing with you for your son, and for God's perfect will to be played out in his life. Thanks for sharing your story and thoughts with us.

Danny, it's great hearing from you, and getting your feedback on the film and the questions it raises. Thanks for that! Take good care.

While it is true the Bible condemns men who are married to women engaging in adulterous same sex relations with other men (Leviticus 18:22, 20:13 and Romans 1:26-27), and while it is true the Bible condemns church leaders who molest boys in their congregation (1 Corinthians 6:9-10), and while it is true the Bible condemns same sex prostitution (1 Timothy 1:10), and while it is true the Bible condemns male-on-male gang rape (Genesis 19).... it is equally true that at no time does the Bible ever condemn same sex marriage.

While the traditional interpretations of Scripture assigned to these passages continue to be (unscripturally) superimposed onto LGBTQI people, too many end up committing suicide to not stop and take another look at what the Bible says (and does not say) about "homosexuality" and same sex marriage. They are no more the same thing than "heterosexuality" and opposite sex marriage.

As the Bible shows, "homosexuality" can take on many forms, including forms that don't even involve LGBTQI people in the first place!

Joe, I know you're heavily invested spiritually, emotionally and financially in the beliefs you espouse. But I urge you to reconsider if your Scriptural *interpretation* is in fact an accurate Scripture *application*, in reference to LGBTQI people.

With the Light and Love of Christ which supersedes all our limited understanding and traditional theological arguments,

Brian

Six verses in Scripture (Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13; Romans 1:26-27; I Corinthians 6:9-11; I Timothy 1:10) specifically condemn homosexual behavior, without regard to context. Whether done as an act of coercion or mutuality; whether done between adult and child or adult to adult; whether done as part of religious ceremony or interpersonal relating. Homosexual sex is Biblically condemned no matter how or in what context it’s done. This is consistent with the way the Bible address other sexual behaviors. It condemns adultery no matter what form it takes (between adult and child or adult and adult) as it condemns fornication, incest, and bestiality regardless of context.

The Bible does not condemn same-sex marriage because it does not recognize the existence of such a thing. But Jesus made it clear what God recognizes as marriage in Matthew 19:5-7.

Readers who are interested in getting a fuller look at the pro-gay interpretation of the Bible should view Matthew Vine’s video found here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezQjNJUSraY

Vines is currently the most popular and influential speaker on the subject. I disagree with him completely, but he is very articulate and explains in logical detail his position on the Bible and homosexuality.

Readers interested in a rebuttal to Vines should read my postings on his teaching which can be found in seven parts beginning here:
https://joedallas.com/2014/05/05/assessing-god-and-the-gay-christian-part-one-of-five/

Sincere, "thank you,' Joe. Keep writing brother. Your writings press back the darkness. And, help to the Body of Christ (and others) in discerning their way thru falsities.

It is normal and legal to be gay. To do anything but accept that gay people have been born gay and perfect just the way they are- is wrong and the definition of bigotry. Anyone that teaches this bigotry and tells parents, or their young gay kids, that they weren’t born perfect just as they are, are the murderers of all the thousands of kids who are told by their parents that there is something wrong with them. These parents feel confident they are telling their kids the right thing because of their bigoted religious leader’s confirmation and people like you Joe Dallas. These poor kids think there is something wrong with them and know they can’t ever change because it was the way they were born. You are one of the murderers of these children- difficult to hear, but the truth. Wake up and look at what you have been doing all these years. Great- you decided to not be gay- shut up, live your life, and stop helping cause these suicides! You should be ashamed of yourself.

No one is born perfect, but we’re all certainly born valuable, created in God’s image and loved by Him. They jury’s still out on whether or not people are born gay, although I’ve frequently written on this since 1991 and have said all along that I think it’s possible homosexuality is inborn, but so far, it hasn’t been proven.

Since even the best of us is born with a sin nature, whether or not something is inborn or acquired later is secondary to me. Your definition of bigotry is wildly inaccurate.

A bigot refuses to tolerate or see the equal value of another person, believing himself to be superior.

Holding a moral viewpoint that something like homosexuality falls short of God’s will doesn’t qualify as bigotry. It’s a belief based on a world view, which you may not believe, but you’re wrong when referring to it as bigotry, much less the sort which inspires murders and suicides.

After studying this issue for several years from the perspective of mental health counseling, person-centered therapy and couples/systems therapy, it seems logical to ask a question which may seem offensive to some, but must be asked: In terms of how the spouse or eventual spouse of an SSA partner, where is the concern for that person when an SSA individual is encouraged to "seek his or her heterosexual potential" ? I asked the same question of the late Joseph Nicolosi. His response was this: "She will forever be affected". So, in one sentence the most noted practitioner of reparative therapy summed it up. In his own words, Nicolosi admitted that SSA desires will never go away. In reading one of his books, Nicolosi also advocated for "not sharing details" of sexual past with a prospective heterosexual spouse. How is any of that fair to the eventual spouse? Truth and transparency are not important when considering marriage? What is the Christian basis for such a practice? Frankly, it seems parasitic to use a person of the opposite sex to seek a "conversion" or repair for SSA desires and behaviors. Without exception, almost every piece of literature I have read or researched on this subject is focused solely on the individual with SSA desires. By definition, marriage is about both partners, not just one, and any encouragement to seek a heterosexual partner serves one person only. It seems astonishingly selfish. The hurt and emotional damage that occurs when a heterosexual spouse learns of a "relapse" is extremely concerning, and in some cases life-altering. I don't pretend to have all the answers, but it seems to me that celibacy is a better answer. Damaging another person or family with false hope is not an answer at all. Exodus International had the courage to admit that, and so did John Paulk. To date, advocates for conversion therapy have not.

No one should enter into marriage unless she or he is sexually attracted to the person she or he is considering for a spouse. And sexual history is important, so I strongly believe a person who has been sexually active before marriage should disclose that, as well as the nature of the sexual activity. If the person has wrestled with same-sex attractions but not been sexually active, I believe that should be disclosed as it is a part of that person's internal sexual history.

What I never see addressed is the deliberate propaganda of the title. 19 is not a "boy." Ironic that gay activists was toddlers to be able to choose to maim their bodies, yet exploit the term "boy" to make it seem as if a child were kidnapped kicking and screaming into an anti-gay concentration camp.

What I never see addressed is the deliberate propaganda of the title. 19 is not a "boy." Ironic that gay activists want toddlers to be able to choose to maim their bodies, yet exploit the term "boy" to make it seem as if a child were kidnapped kicking and screaming into an anti-gay concentration camp.

After spending several years researching this subject, and reading books by Joseph Nicolosi, among others, it has become apparent to me that many who have not done their own research on the subject of sexual orientation change (SOCE aka Conversion) therapy are being led by falsehoods about the efficacy of such efforts. Someone struggling with same sex attraction should read about the scandals associated with George Rekers who has often been referenced in conversion/reparative therapy resources as a research source to validate success. Rekers client committed suicide at age 38 according to news reports, and Rekers was involved in a male escort scandal in Florida. Exodus Internantional closed it's doors, Dr. Robert Spitzer publicly renounced his own research, and "Love Won Out" author John Paulk returned to his former lifestyle after fathering children. While anyone struggling with these issues deserves utmost care and concern while facing such deep and personal challenges, false hopes and harmful therapeutic approaches are not the answer. If "therapy" cannot offer or even cite evidence-based success, it is harmful. The definition of homosexuality encompasses desires as well as behaviors. Though marriage to a member of the opposite sex may reduce homosexual behaviors somewhat, there can be no claim of successful "treatment" if desires still exist. Peer-reviewed research overwhelmingly demonstrates that SSA desires rarely change in sustainable ways. This was publicly attested to by the President of Exodus during his public apology on Oprah. Dr. Nicolosi, now deceased, encouraged his clients to "develop" their homosexual potential, and even went so far as to actually advise in one book that a man should not share "details of his past" with his heterosexual partner. I ask this: At the expense of whom is a heterosexual potential developed? A bride? Their children? Which biblical precept gives one human being the right to omit truth or to expect another person to help him or her develop a sexual "potential"?? And what emotional havoc is left in the wake for families when such efforts fail? The over-riding message of the Bible is to "love one another", and the message of Boy Erased is to do just that. Love one another as God created us.